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lullabelleSo I watched Torchwood in more or less one sitting. All three seasons, during the course of one rainy week in December, when I was laid up with the pig plague.
It took me a couple of days to sort my thoughts enough for me to actually write down what I thought of Children of Earth, and even then this is all very knee-jerk. I did my best not to edit it as I typed it up, because it's what I thought before I became at all involved in the fandom. I think I had a different take on a lot of it because I didn't have any expectations. It was all immediate for me. Looking back on this, even just a few months later, is interesting.
Edited to say: Obviously, spoilers for CoE.
Pacing -- off like a shot, tight storytelling, completely uncampy, but loses its sense of whimsy, which I kind of miss. Improvement of film quality and effects.
The old man was annoying, but he was probably meant to be.
The 456 were a very effective villain. By effective, I mean it made my skin crawl off my body and hide under the bed. I flinched everytime it pussed on the glass, or whatever that was.
TW stumbled across a few cardinal horror tropes and applied them with surprising deftness. 1) Kids are scary. 2) Less is more. Children-are-creepy has been beaten to death recently, but TW brings a new-enough twist to it to keep it from being gimmicky, directing the alien threat towards the kids instead of through the kids and towards the adults. The 456 are an all-but-unseen threat that want 10% of the world's children... so that they can get high. And we've just cranked the evil factor up to 11.
A little lower on the evil scale is John Forbisher, the government fall guy whom you want to feel bad for, but between issuing a kill order on Torchwood and making every bad (read: cowardly) decision available to him, he manages to sidestep pretty much any sympathy you might be inclined to throw his way.
Johnson -- freaky shit, hard as nails, liked that she wasn't mindless and they were able to sway her in the end.
Lois -- really liked her, hope she joins Torchwood, though she might catch hate if she does, since she will essentially be filling Ianto's shoes, and the fanosphere seems pretty unwilling to let him go.
Rupesh -- excellent red herring. Replacement for Owen? Nope! Government plant. Now a dead government plant. Took me completely by surprise. I will note, however, that it bothers me that all the minority characters with the exception of Lois are dicks, and post-Tosh Torchwood is very white. Grumble. Also, the projects where Ianto's family lives? Very white. Just sayin'. Not really going to blow this too out of proportion, because there's only so much you can do in 5 hours, and most of the new characters who are introduced are in some way assholes, so choice rolls are at a minimum. But, still. White-ass projects.
Alice and Steven. Guess it makes sense that, with as much ass as Jack supposedly gets, he'd eventually fertilize someone, but it's still strange to see him in a family setting, and it only serves to drive home how much he doesn't really belong, a point already brought up by the new and awkward note his relationship with Ianto has taken.
I'm probably in the minority here, but I feel Gwen was underplayed. Oops! Pregnant, can't do shit. The whole Gwen's-knocked-up plotpoint irritated me. It felt like a convenient way to remove her from the show without killing her, since it would be unlikely she'd leave Torchwood otherwise, especially considering she seemed firmly against children until she actually got pregnant. Frustrating. I hope Eve Myles comes back for series four. I really do love Gwen. Another reason her pregnancy bothered me is because it tied her to Rhys more firmly and... well, I've never really gelled to Rhys. He's boring. It's like they created an everyman character and succeeded just a little too well. Gwen and Rhys escape Cardiff in a potato truck just to give Rhys something to do. But anyways.
The real meat of the miniseries, character-wise, is Ianto and Jack, both together and seperately. You get to meet Ianto's family, which is really the first time you see Ianto at all outside the Torchwood environment. The whole Ianto storyline is bittersweet and open to a million interpretations simply because he never gives anything away. You can interpret however you will, but you never really know Ianto's motivations for anything. This makes him interesting. It also, coupled with a cute face, a very nice behind, and a canon relationship with his smoking hot boss, made him a fangirl magnet. He was very much a choose-your-own-adventure character and it made him a quiet kind of wild card. In retrospect, his death shouldn't have come as a surprise. By killing off Owen and Tosh in the series 2 finale, right after revealing their origin stories in "Fragments", RTD had already displayed a penchant for offing characters after major revelations. I know there was a lot of speculation over whether or not his death was homophobic. I'm going to vote a tentative 'no', just because Torchwood destroyed pretty much everything it had, except for Gwen who seems irritatingly immune, and Rhys who is caught up in her magical immunity wake.
I do think there was a little bit of cheap emotional manipulation involved. By showing that Ianto is uncomfortable with his "couple" status outside of the confines of Torchwood, and having people identify him as gay regardless of how he identifies himself, it shows that he is taking his relationship with Jack seriously. He's thinking of himself and Jack in a real-world context and it's troubling him, because they're freaking doomed. I think he's also afraid to let Jack know just how deeply he feels for him, knowing how many people Jack's loved and lost before him, and will after him. Ianto will always be one of many. I think there's some fear of rejection, since Jack's been pretty elusive about quantifying exactly what it is he and Ianto have. When he concedes they're a couple, the very next scene he bitches about how he hates the term couple. Jack may love Ianto, but he's certainly not copping to it. Jack is an elusive douche. But long story short, CoE teases a love story out of a what was mostly an off-screen relationship, and then blows it to bits by killing off the more unrequited partner. He can only tell Jack he loves him when he doesn't fear the consequences anymore. Jack doesn't say it at all. It's pretty fucking tragic, and played for absolute maximum pain. So I feel like I was a little manipulated, but I think they achieved exactly what they were going for here. Which was carnage.
Jack is the focal point for this whole thing. Everything that happens here is a result of his actions. The moral grayness of this whole series is a thing of beauty. I could think about it until my brain pops. It's all a question of what is an acceptable sacrifice for survival. 12 kids for 45 years of safety? 10% of children for an undetermined length of safety? One kid to guarantee they go away, at least for now? What I find unforgivable about the whole thing is that evidently no one feels the need to follow up after the first incident. They get pulled into this alien protection racket in 1965. They pay off the aliens with 12 kids, and that's it? That's 45 years in which Torchwood or the government or whoever could have made sure the 456 never came back and that busload of doe-eyed orphans didn't give up their lives in vain. You don't just forget about impending alien threats like that. Way to be our first, last, and only line of defense, Torchwood, you shifty fucks.
Anyway, Jack's connection to the 1st coming of the 456 is revealed to the appropriate horror of Gwen and Ianto. It's this outpouring of righteous indignation from the peanut gallery that spurs Jack to tell the 456 to fuck themselves. And then the 456 kill everyone in Thames House, including Ianto. And Jack, but he gets better. (And I'm being callous here, but I cried like a bitch. I had to stop and take a walk after Ianto died, only to start crying again when Gwen came in to claim the bodies.) Nice going, champ. This is where RTD says to himself, "Well, Jack can't die, so how badly can we mangle him?" Again, Jack makes the hard decision to sacrifice his own grandson to transmit a debilitating signal to the 456. I admit, the series wraps a little neatly -- the 456 broadcast on the very wavelength that can defeat them? That's almost as bad as aliens coming to Earth who dissolve in water -- but not quite. But it's forgivable as the pseudo-science takes a backseat to the character drama anyway. My big question is, where the hell are they going from here? While I'm absolutely jazzed that Torchwood is coming back for series four, can the show survive on Jack alone? Which is why I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the return of Eve Myles. That, and she rocks, and I want to bone her into a puddle. And while I'm not freaking out over the death of Ianto, I am still mourning a bit, cuz he was totes my fave, and I was a little... perturbed?.... to hear that Jack got a hook-up on the Doctor Who Christmas special. It's his first outing since CoE, and this guy had better be pretty fucking special, or I'm going to dislike him on the grounds that he's not Ianto. Like, chocolate flavored taint special. And I might still hate him. I'll give the definitive update as soon as I've seen "The End of Time" which should happen sometime this week.
All in all, I give Torchwood: Children of Earth four out of five exploded pterodactyls.
A/N 1: Obviously, since writing this the future of Torchwood has become less certain. :'(
A/N 2: Saw the End of Time. I <3 Russell Tovey to bits and pieces on Being Human. I think he's fantastic. That said, he's goofy looking, and if he were to go down on me I'd be way too tempted to steer him by his ears.
A/N 3: As I've gotten more into the fandom, I've actually become more upset by Ianto's death. It's contagious. (I was also startled by the Gwen hate. That hasn't been contagious, but it's lonely here in the Gwen fan club.)
A/N 4: Also, thinking harder on the ever-controversial homophobia issue, I've become less convinced of my tentative "no", but that's another rant for another time.
It took me a couple of days to sort my thoughts enough for me to actually write down what I thought of Children of Earth, and even then this is all very knee-jerk. I did my best not to edit it as I typed it up, because it's what I thought before I became at all involved in the fandom. I think I had a different take on a lot of it because I didn't have any expectations. It was all immediate for me. Looking back on this, even just a few months later, is interesting.
Edited to say: Obviously, spoilers for CoE.
Pacing -- off like a shot, tight storytelling, completely uncampy, but loses its sense of whimsy, which I kind of miss. Improvement of film quality and effects.
The old man was annoying, but he was probably meant to be.
The 456 were a very effective villain. By effective, I mean it made my skin crawl off my body and hide under the bed. I flinched everytime it pussed on the glass, or whatever that was.
TW stumbled across a few cardinal horror tropes and applied them with surprising deftness. 1) Kids are scary. 2) Less is more. Children-are-creepy has been beaten to death recently, but TW brings a new-enough twist to it to keep it from being gimmicky, directing the alien threat towards the kids instead of through the kids and towards the adults. The 456 are an all-but-unseen threat that want 10% of the world's children... so that they can get high. And we've just cranked the evil factor up to 11.
A little lower on the evil scale is John Forbisher, the government fall guy whom you want to feel bad for, but between issuing a kill order on Torchwood and making every bad (read: cowardly) decision available to him, he manages to sidestep pretty much any sympathy you might be inclined to throw his way.
Johnson -- freaky shit, hard as nails, liked that she wasn't mindless and they were able to sway her in the end.
Lois -- really liked her, hope she joins Torchwood, though she might catch hate if she does, since she will essentially be filling Ianto's shoes, and the fanosphere seems pretty unwilling to let him go.
Rupesh -- excellent red herring. Replacement for Owen? Nope! Government plant. Now a dead government plant. Took me completely by surprise. I will note, however, that it bothers me that all the minority characters with the exception of Lois are dicks, and post-Tosh Torchwood is very white. Grumble. Also, the projects where Ianto's family lives? Very white. Just sayin'. Not really going to blow this too out of proportion, because there's only so much you can do in 5 hours, and most of the new characters who are introduced are in some way assholes, so choice rolls are at a minimum. But, still. White-ass projects.
Alice and Steven. Guess it makes sense that, with as much ass as Jack supposedly gets, he'd eventually fertilize someone, but it's still strange to see him in a family setting, and it only serves to drive home how much he doesn't really belong, a point already brought up by the new and awkward note his relationship with Ianto has taken.
I'm probably in the minority here, but I feel Gwen was underplayed. Oops! Pregnant, can't do shit. The whole Gwen's-knocked-up plotpoint irritated me. It felt like a convenient way to remove her from the show without killing her, since it would be unlikely she'd leave Torchwood otherwise, especially considering she seemed firmly against children until she actually got pregnant. Frustrating. I hope Eve Myles comes back for series four. I really do love Gwen. Another reason her pregnancy bothered me is because it tied her to Rhys more firmly and... well, I've never really gelled to Rhys. He's boring. It's like they created an everyman character and succeeded just a little too well. Gwen and Rhys escape Cardiff in a potato truck just to give Rhys something to do. But anyways.
The real meat of the miniseries, character-wise, is Ianto and Jack, both together and seperately. You get to meet Ianto's family, which is really the first time you see Ianto at all outside the Torchwood environment. The whole Ianto storyline is bittersweet and open to a million interpretations simply because he never gives anything away. You can interpret however you will, but you never really know Ianto's motivations for anything. This makes him interesting. It also, coupled with a cute face, a very nice behind, and a canon relationship with his smoking hot boss, made him a fangirl magnet. He was very much a choose-your-own-adventure character and it made him a quiet kind of wild card. In retrospect, his death shouldn't have come as a surprise. By killing off Owen and Tosh in the series 2 finale, right after revealing their origin stories in "Fragments", RTD had already displayed a penchant for offing characters after major revelations. I know there was a lot of speculation over whether or not his death was homophobic. I'm going to vote a tentative 'no', just because Torchwood destroyed pretty much everything it had, except for Gwen who seems irritatingly immune, and Rhys who is caught up in her magical immunity wake.
I do think there was a little bit of cheap emotional manipulation involved. By showing that Ianto is uncomfortable with his "couple" status outside of the confines of Torchwood, and having people identify him as gay regardless of how he identifies himself, it shows that he is taking his relationship with Jack seriously. He's thinking of himself and Jack in a real-world context and it's troubling him, because they're freaking doomed. I think he's also afraid to let Jack know just how deeply he feels for him, knowing how many people Jack's loved and lost before him, and will after him. Ianto will always be one of many. I think there's some fear of rejection, since Jack's been pretty elusive about quantifying exactly what it is he and Ianto have. When he concedes they're a couple, the very next scene he bitches about how he hates the term couple. Jack may love Ianto, but he's certainly not copping to it. Jack is an elusive douche. But long story short, CoE teases a love story out of a what was mostly an off-screen relationship, and then blows it to bits by killing off the more unrequited partner. He can only tell Jack he loves him when he doesn't fear the consequences anymore. Jack doesn't say it at all. It's pretty fucking tragic, and played for absolute maximum pain. So I feel like I was a little manipulated, but I think they achieved exactly what they were going for here. Which was carnage.
Jack is the focal point for this whole thing. Everything that happens here is a result of his actions. The moral grayness of this whole series is a thing of beauty. I could think about it until my brain pops. It's all a question of what is an acceptable sacrifice for survival. 12 kids for 45 years of safety? 10% of children for an undetermined length of safety? One kid to guarantee they go away, at least for now? What I find unforgivable about the whole thing is that evidently no one feels the need to follow up after the first incident. They get pulled into this alien protection racket in 1965. They pay off the aliens with 12 kids, and that's it? That's 45 years in which Torchwood or the government or whoever could have made sure the 456 never came back and that busload of doe-eyed orphans didn't give up their lives in vain. You don't just forget about impending alien threats like that. Way to be our first, last, and only line of defense, Torchwood, you shifty fucks.
Anyway, Jack's connection to the 1st coming of the 456 is revealed to the appropriate horror of Gwen and Ianto. It's this outpouring of righteous indignation from the peanut gallery that spurs Jack to tell the 456 to fuck themselves. And then the 456 kill everyone in Thames House, including Ianto. And Jack, but he gets better. (And I'm being callous here, but I cried like a bitch. I had to stop and take a walk after Ianto died, only to start crying again when Gwen came in to claim the bodies.) Nice going, champ. This is where RTD says to himself, "Well, Jack can't die, so how badly can we mangle him?" Again, Jack makes the hard decision to sacrifice his own grandson to transmit a debilitating signal to the 456. I admit, the series wraps a little neatly -- the 456 broadcast on the very wavelength that can defeat them? That's almost as bad as aliens coming to Earth who dissolve in water -- but not quite. But it's forgivable as the pseudo-science takes a backseat to the character drama anyway. My big question is, where the hell are they going from here? While I'm absolutely jazzed that Torchwood is coming back for series four, can the show survive on Jack alone? Which is why I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the return of Eve Myles. That, and she rocks, and I want to bone her into a puddle. And while I'm not freaking out over the death of Ianto, I am still mourning a bit, cuz he was totes my fave, and I was a little... perturbed?.... to hear that Jack got a hook-up on the Doctor Who Christmas special. It's his first outing since CoE, and this guy had better be pretty fucking special, or I'm going to dislike him on the grounds that he's not Ianto. Like, chocolate flavored taint special. And I might still hate him. I'll give the definitive update as soon as I've seen "The End of Time" which should happen sometime this week.
All in all, I give Torchwood: Children of Earth four out of five exploded pterodactyls.
A/N 1: Obviously, since writing this the future of Torchwood has become less certain. :'(
A/N 2: Saw the End of Time. I <3 Russell Tovey to bits and pieces on Being Human. I think he's fantastic. That said, he's goofy looking, and if he were to go down on me I'd be way too tempted to steer him by his ears.
A/N 3: As I've gotten more into the fandom, I've actually become more upset by Ianto's death. It's contagious. (I was also startled by the Gwen hate. That hasn't been contagious, but it's lonely here in the Gwen fan club.)
A/N 4: Also, thinking harder on the ever-controversial homophobia issue, I've become less convinced of my tentative "no", but that's another rant for another time.
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(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-14 01:37 am (UTC)and -- I'd be way too tempted to steer him by his ears. That was my very first thought! XD
I give this review ten out of ten exploded pterodactyls. It was respectful but criticized in the places where criticism was warranted, without going all batshit like I would have gone if I tried to do this. (Er, I've already done it. And went batshit.)
So go you. Hee.
Oh, and your A/Ns! 3 -- IT IS. IT SO IS. GOD IS IT EVER.
5 -- If we accept that RTD was going for total misery, destruction and isolation, I think making it homophobic would come naturally. Homophobia's another awful thing, like nihilism (so much nihilism), especially for a gay writer. But it was just. Too. Miserable.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-14 03:24 am (UTC)And I rant over and over, that the way to make fantasy real is to make reality utterly without reproach, and there were SO MANY big, huge problems with the reality angle in CoE that I could never suspend my disbelief long enough to buy into the fantastic elements.
But I've come to a point of exhausted acceptance. It's interesting to be coming across someone who has just now seen it almost an entire year later. I've tried to do a rewatch of seasons 1 and 2, and I never make it more than a couple of episodes before I'm yelling at the screen: "You did that in THIS ep, couldn't you have done it in CoE?" So, yeah, issues...plural :)
Great review, though, thanks for sharing!
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-14 03:54 am (UTC)This was actually my third or fourth attempt to write a review, and it wasn't so much that I went batshit as much as I WENT EVERYWHERE. The tangents were epic. It took me about a week to detach myself enough to make my thoughts organize. I'm glad you thought I was fair, cuz I felt pretty ranty. :)
Also, sorry about the A/N numbering. I totally cannot count (initially, 3 was two points, but I don't really care about Gwen-bashing all that much, because I understand the reasoning if not the ferocity, so it was more of a side-note)...
And, I actually did write a sort-of analysis regarding Ianto's death and homophobia, I'm just working up the balls to post it, though I actually hadn't even pondered the nihilism angle...
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-14 03:29 am (UTC)Re: the homophobia thing, I think the important thing to remember there is that it's not essential to come up with one "true" answer here, even though it is a very important issue to discuss. There are many people from LGBTQ communities who did not find CoE problematic, and there were many who felt deeply hurt by it, because they felt it reinforced many homophobic discourses (ie, the dead/bereaved gay trope, the idea that het couples are "better" than same-sex couples, etc).
Personally (though as a straight woman, my opinion here shouldn't be given too much weight), I feel that it was unnecessary for Jack and Ianto to be portrayed as so shallow in comparison to Gwen and Rhys, and I feel that Ianto's death was unnecessary too. So although I don't believe that any of the show's writers were homophobic themselves, I do think they could have avoided reinforcing a lot of homophobic discourses -- and avoided hurting many people in LGBTQ communities -- if they'd just been a little bit more creative.
Having said that, however, this is not a zero-sum game. There were also many members of LGBTQ communities who took away very positive things from CoE, and that is unequivocally a Good Thing -- that doesn't get cancelled out just because there were many people who felt that there were some homohobic discourses present. I just wish that the show had been able to evoke that sort of positive response for many more people -- and I think that it easily could have done so.
Oh, and for the record, I love Gwen too, and I agree about her character treatment in CoE. I don't object to her being pregnant at all (although I think her pregnancy was used in a fairly superficial way in CoE), but I feel that her pregnanc was used to keep her away from the heart of the action -- which is highly problematic when she's supposed to be the "heart" of the show. In Day Five, Gwen was pretty much impotent -- none of her actions have an impact on anyone. I think she should have been present when Jack killed Steven, and that her character should have developed as a result of seeing that first hand. But RTD seems to be shit-scared of "breaking" Gwen -- I don't think he has enough faith in her.
ETA: RE: the Gwen fan club -- check out the comms
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-14 10:28 am (UTC)And I completely agree on the Gwen front. It would have been interesting to see her reaction, at the very least.
P.S. I'm totally friending you. And checking out those comms.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-14 04:56 am (UTC)lefaym said: some people who weren't in fandom seemed just as horrified by Ianto's death as those of us who were in fandom when we saw it,
COE Day 4 was the first TW ep I ever watched, although I was aware of the Jack/Ianto relationship from catching the occasional interview or mention in the mags. I was shocked they killed him off and, tbh, assumed at the end of Day 5 that TW had been cancelled and this was their farewell special. It really did feel very much like a goodbye (complete with foot-stomping tantrum and breaking of toys so no one else can play with them) and I was surprised when they announced it could come back. I didn't see how - I still don't (not in its Cardiff form anyway) - and I doubt I'll watch anyway.
I quite liked much of COE. I liked the premise (plot holes aside), I liked the progression, I liked the creepy kids and alien (although the vomiting got a bit old and LOL-worthy towards the end), I loved the support cast. The only thing I didn't like was the awkward fit of the characters which, upon my first watching, I assumed was me just not knowing them yet. Now, after watching the first two seasons, I know that it wasn't my lack of familiarity, but the fact that these characters had been jammed into a hole that was all the wrong shape. It was a good mini-series... but it wasn't Torchwood.
I'm confused by the thrown out, 'He was gay' and the Smell the Queer comments. I don't know why they were included, why they were necessary since they added nothing to the plot. Are we to assume they were added in case someone watching hadn't got the point yet that Jack and Ianto were in a relationship therefore making the impact of Ianto's death less shocking and dramatic? Deliberate homophobia? This straight girl doesn't know, but I do know that I was uncomfortable and puzzled by them.
I have so much dislike for the J/I relationship in COE that I could actually smash the word limit here with a rant so I'm not going to start except to say that I choose to insert my own reality and build upon the tiny, miniscule glimpses we got of their relationship in the first two series. You said: But long story short, CoE teases a love story out of a what was mostly an off-screen relationship, and then blows it to bits by killing off the more unrequited partner, but I think the slow death began with the opening credits.
Thanks for writing this up. I love reading what other people think of the show. It makes me look at things differently and think, 'yeah, actually I can see that'. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-14 01:27 pm (UTC)I interpreted the whole point-at-teh-gay bit as justifying Ianto's angst, to a certain extent. I think Ianto was having a bit of an identity crisis, and the awkward comments were to prove that it's not altogether unfounded (though he still came off as a little whiny). But this could also just be me projecting.
My initial interpretation of Jack/Ianto is one of the things I've actually changed my mind on a little since writing this, and rewatching the whole shebang. I agree that they were falling apart from the word 'go'. And it makes me sad. (I actually missed a lot in my first watch-through... I was in a fever-induced fugue state.)
comment on COE review.
Date: 2010-03-15 12:15 am (UTC)I want to start off with apologizing for blundering in on your post, but I was bored and browsing eljay. Your post came up first on a random search. And seeing that it was a review of COE I couldn't help but get a bit curious.
And wow am I glad I read it!! This review was all sorts of awesome (especially considering the fact that these were some of the first words you typed out about the subject? ... I know I wasn't half as eloquent...).
This post gets five out of five exploded pterodactyls from me ♥
I think this review was brill, and I have little to nothing to add. But would still love to discuss Torchwood:COE & some of the stuff you've written here. My comment got a bit too lengthy so I split it into two parts (wha sorry! I'm totally boring you, aren't I?) I hope you don't mind. Please do tell me if you rather I stayed off your journal! (No offense, promise!)
First off, I actually did the same as you, watching the whole of Torchwood in more or less one go. I had previously gotten introduced to Doctor Who & a friend dragged me off to a con in the UK (I'm actually from sweden), in February, where Gareth David-lloyd was a Guest. Which is where our introduction to the series differs a bit, because I started watching the series after the con, knowing that Ianto Jones was going to die.
And I sort of steeled myself, thinking that I didn't want to get overly attached to the character. But right off the bat, this, I realized, was impossible. He soon stole my heart. (And Gareth is NOTHING like Ianto IRL. So the love was purely character based. Though he does look good!) Anyway I'm off a tangent here...
What I wanted to get at was that my sentiments regarding COE overall are none-the-less basically written down here in your review. Our introduction to the series might differ, but you pretty much captured how I felt after watching COE, but with a lot of prettier words than could formulate myself. ♥ Although some of the things you wrote here, made me amazed simply by how level-headed you review COE after your first watch. I can tell you that besides all the crying and general feeling of hopelessness that overtook me, I was more of the ranting, raving & generally going batshit-sort.
Without further ado onto discussion:
I also missed the whimsy of previous Torchwood series!! COE was fast-paced and action-packed, but lost some of it's heart I think. Maybe cause it was lacking Gwen a lot?
I didn't hate the old man as much as I hated Dekker. (That environmental suit should have been for Ianto dammit!!)
And yes, 456 were indeed an effective villain! Disgusting and vile aliens.
In regards to John Forbisher, I totally agree! No sympathy from me, no way! And I too liked Lois, and wouldn't mind having her on Torchwood... but like you said, there has to be a bit of careful threading to not make it feel like she's filling someone's -- Ianto's -- shoes. The thing with Rupesh also took me completely by surprise.
Concerning Jack in family setting, there has been some suggestions of it earlier. There was that wedding picture of Lucia Moretti (which we found out was the mother of Alice). But I agree that it just works to drive home the point of Jack's immortality and the hopelessness of his situation. Argh, and it makes me so sad to think how Jack and Ianto's relationship is handled in COE. I remember reading an interview with Russel T Davis where he said "When someone dies you lose all that potential. You grieve over everything they could have been. Everything you hoped for them. Everything they might have achieved with their lives, everyone they could have loved. Every job they could have had. Every joy they could have had. It’s gone." [AfterElton interview] which really fits the description. Like you said, Ianto was finally coming to terms with his feelings & himself in respects to his relationship with Jack, and BAM it's all over. No road taken, opportunity missed. And even though I realize that this is like in life & hey, Torchwood has plenty of the Drama, it doesn't change the feeling of regret I have about how it had to end. The way they sort of crashed and burned before Ianto's death. :(
[continued in next comment...]
"Torchwood"; Death by Torchwood?
Date: 2010-03-15 12:26 am (UTC)I'm probably in the minority here, but I feel Gwen was underplayed. No! I totally agree. But to be fair I also thought that all of Torchwood (as a unit) was underplayed. I was really annoyed at the amount of focus COE put on newly introduced characters, like Forbisher, when it amounted to no sympathy nor any sort of development (save maybe plot), especially for me, watching it. Even though Ianto & Jack have a couple of moments, and are pushed to quite the amount of development (what with family being introduced & their relationship aired) I still felt there was quite a bit left [probably intentionally, dammit] unresolved.
[...] You can interpret however you will, but you never really know Ianto's motivations for anything. This makes him interesting. I just ♥ the way you pinned Ianto's characterization down here. He is very mysterious. Like how for example you never even get to see where he lives.
I doubt a kid will have Gwen leaving Torchwood. Considering that Eve is signed up for series four there isn't much risk of it either! In fact RTD has even said that he could write the first episode of S4 just like that, cause he knows 'exactly were Gwen, Rhys & Jack are at that point'.
I know there was a lot of speculation over whether or not [Ianto's] death was homophobic. I'm really vexed about this as well. Considering RTD is openly gay (and given Torchwood in general) I must admit that I doubt there was any intentional homophobia intended. But that doesn't change the fact that I feel it was of great disservice to kill Ianto off like that, never really allowing the two of them to have any romantic development on-screen. But that's my opinion. There are those of the complete opposite opinion (http://www.afterelton.com/TV/2009/10/death-torchwood-queer-visibility?page=0%2C0) though.
CoE teases a love story out of a what was mostly an off-screen relationship, and then blows it to bits by killing off the more unrequited partner. He can only tell Jack he loves him when he doesn't fear the consequences anymore. Jack doesn't say it at all. It's pretty fucking tragic, and played for absolute maximum pain. This pretty much exactly sums up my feeling for COE!Janto. And brings tears to my eyes. Ack to cry so much over a fictional character & a fictional relationship.
My big question is, where the hell are they going from here? this I wanna know too. Screwing Jack up this bad, leaving earth a graveyard for him, what can possibly make him return? And will the return be gracious enough for us to be able to accept and embrace, or will it thread too close to the ledge? I believe I need to see some serious grief if I'm to cope with it. The Christmas special where the Doctor sends Jack a "present" (present being Midshipman Alonso Frame) just rubbed it in for me and at that point it didn't exactly make me feel happy that Jack is "healing". It was too close in time for comfort, no matter how far away in the future it's supposed to be for Jack & Whoniverse. So I seriously hope that stays a harmless flirt/chat and Russell Tovey stays busy with Being Human!
I know you didn't comment on this, but what are your feeling concerning how Torchwood Three (the hub, SUV etc.) are now all basically gone? When I first watched it it felt very intense and spontaneous, but when rewatching it, I couldn't help but get annoyed at how everything that made Torchwood what it was in series one & two is conveniently destroyed, or stolen (and the stolen SUV felt like one of those convenient plot-devices). Dunno if you've watched any Doctor Who, but I was kind of hoping for the Time Lock [introduced in DW "Journey's End"] to stop the hub from blowing up. But I guess since Russel T Davis is leaving Torchwood he wanted it to all go down with a bang! :(
Okay, those were some of my thoughts on the subject of COE :)
// Candy
Re: "Torchwood"; Death by Torchwood?
Date: 2010-03-15 02:24 am (UTC)Thanks for thinking this was eloquent. It actually took me a little while to calm down enough to write, so it's good to know they were days well spent.
And I agree with you about Dekker. I wanted to slash holes in that suit.
I did read that interview with Russell T Davies and, well, on one hand he's right, death doesn't wait for one's story to finish, but on the other hand he talks about Ianto's death like he had no control, and it's a little patronizing. Honestly, I was much more upset about Day Four after I read some of RTD's interviews. For instance, I definitely don't think that "the 456 were such a big threat that it didn't make sense that all the main characters survive" holds any water -- because of the nature of the threat, individuals weren't at stake. Either everyone was safe, or everyone was dead. They actually had to do some plot contortions to make sure that, of the main cast, only Ianto got permanently dead.
Ianto was finally coming to terms with his feelings & himself in respects to his relationship with Jack, and BAM it's all over. I'm not sure if Ianto was quite to the "coming to terms" stage yet... he seemed too unsettled. Personally, I think he was in the "what have I gotten myself into"/"i'm in too deep to back out now" phase of his relationship with Jack. I think the fact that Ianto died at a time when he was obviously feeling unsure of himself was... knife-twisty. Especially when you look at it in relation to Owen and Tosh's deaths. Basically, life likes to poop on Ianto.
But to be fair I also thought that all of Torchwood (as a unit) was underplayed. I completely agree. As much as I enjoyed CoE, there were definitely times were I got a little impatient with it, when big chunks of time would pass without seeing a familiar face. :/
I must admit that I doubt there was any intentional homophobia intended. I definitely don't think there was any intentional homophobia, though RTD's reaction when he was asked about this had me snorting a little. Basically he said that he'd earned the right to kill off a gay character. Being gay is not a get-out-of-homophobia free card. I'm not saying Ianto's death was: I don't think there's any cut-and-dried answer, but RTD does not escape scrutiny because he's in the in-crowd. Buuuut I don't think I want to be the person who has to tell him that. And I've read that AfterElton article you linked: it had me spitting fire. Like, I'm not even sure I can discuss it properly and remain coherent. One of my biggest issues: Jack Harkness, queer superhero for a new age, despises labels. Ianto Jones: demure ghost of queerness past, uncomfortable with his labels, and therefore deserves to die. WHAT? lkfjodifjldkfkldjlfjgrrrrrr....
Actually, when the Hub exploded, my first thoughts were, "Fuck! Not the pterodactyl!" The stolen SUV aggravated me later; when it was first stolen, it was kind of funny, but by the end of the episode, they'd obviously just gotten it out of the way... Honestly, thinking about the destruction of the Hub is kind of painful. It'd become a character in and of itself. There was so much stuff there. I know RTD said he blew it up to prove that Torchwood is not just the Hub, and while I agree that it's more than just that, the Hub's been Torchwood's base of operations since Jack showed up in like, what, 1890ish? And when Jack first introduces Gwen to Torchwood, and she asks, "What's Torchwood?" and he replies, "This is Torchwood. All around you," and gestures expansively. So yes. I'm calling bullshit: the Hub was a huge part of Torchwood, but it makes a sense, because rocks fell and everything died. Except Gwen. So to answer your question, mostly it upset me, but I'm interested to see how they move ahead, if they do move ahead, which I hope they do.
I have no idea where Torchwoods going to go from here. I'll still watch, but I might be peeking through my fingers... I watched the End of Time not very long after CoE, and yeah, I was like, "Too soon, too soon, Jack, REFRACTORY PERIOD omg." But Russell Tovey. Handlebar ears and a lovely tush. Jack could do worse.
Phew.
Re: "Torchwood"; Death by Torchwood?
Date: 2010-03-15 11:48 am (UTC)[RTD] talks about Ianto's death like he had no control, and it's a little patronizing. Honestly, I was much more upset about Day Four after I read some of RTD's interviews. Yeah, I agree with you! They have even explicitly stated that Russel wasn't going to have Jack sacrifice Steven to the 456 in the first draft, and this also made me upset. Because it was one of the only things I felt
justified(no not justified) explained their reasoning for killing Ianto. That something had to cloud Jack's judgment & force him to do a horrible sacrifice. But now we find out that they just wanted some "epic-character-death" to make it seem like the threat was real. wtf? Like you said, 456 wasn't that type of threat.I'm not sure if Ianto was quite to the "coming to terms" stage yet... he seemed too unsettled. I realized I used "coming to terms" a bit too loosely here. I actually meant that Ianto was beginning to consider what him and Jack were, what it meant & how. And knife-twisty is definitely the feeling I had! Owen & Tosh's deaths were a lot more resolved in that sense. As well as the fact that they died trying to make a difference, where as Ianto died a meaningless death in Thames House more resembling collateral damage.
Argh, even just hearing Jack say he loves Ianto too would have been a tiny bit of relief in all that angst. Instead we get "don't!" which doesn't cut close even if Jack ment it as in "don't speak, save your breath". I mean seriously, the man is dying! Let him waste all the breath he has left in his body if he wants! DX And the same could be said if it meant "don't love me, I'm not worth it!" which is such a slap in Ianto's face so I refuse to believe that is what Jack meant.
Basically [RTD] said that he'd earned the right to kill off a gay character. yeah, what the hell is that all about? Why was he so set on killing Ianto. Sometimes I get the feeling that he wasn't the one working to give us more Ianto. Especially considering the fact that Gareth was originally wasn't even signed on to regular-every-episode appearances. It was only after the writers fell in love with him & his performance (much like us viewers I'm sure). Coupled with the fact that later they intended to kill him off in Reset (he was actually the one who was going to get shot -- not Owen) which, even if I'm happy they didn't, would have made more sense considering Jack's reaction & resolve to bring Owen back using the glove (I think it would have made more sense, but like I said, I'm glad they decided to go with Owen because it gave him a lot of character-growth). Sure I understood that Jack felt it had been an unresolved death, but he was the one who preached about not using the glove like that and off he goes to save Owen. None-of-that in COE though, where he accepts Ianto's death without a fight. Still I digress, I'm happy it wasn't Ianto they killed off then and there in Reset.
And I've read that AfterElton article you linked: it had me spitting fire. Remind me of my initial reaction as well when reading it. A friend linked it, and I was like "nooooo they did not just say that!!!" but like I said, that's the opinions of the other side. -fumes silently-
My thoughts when the Hub exploded were pretty scattered. Thinking of all the cryo-frozen people & what would happen to them; Gray, Janet the Weevil & poor Myfanwy. As well as lost tech, lost memories & a Torchwood Three in rubbles.
But Russell Tovey. Handlebar ears and a lovely tush. Jack could do worse. Yeah but see that's what I'm worried about. Especially with Borrowman being all for it and saying that Frame would be a good companion for Jack in Torchwood. Even if I might agree at one point (if that's the road to healing he takes) right now I'm still vehemently disagreeing & feeling like it would make Jack even more unsympathetic, with him just quickly jumping from Ianto to Alonso. So to be honest I'm relieved that Borrowman ain't the one writing the scripts. ;)
Torchwood future?
Date: 2010-03-15 11:50 am (UTC)I'm also wondering about the Torchwood!USA talk. Are they planning on putting Torchwood four in the states? Or how else will they explain how Queen Victoria's Torchwood ended up on foreign soil? And will Torchwood work on Fox, and yeah... lots of doubts there.
I will probably also continue watching Torchwood, allegedly through my fingers, but right now I'm just pretending COE never existed and happily living in my series one+two bubble. Between the Torchwood Archives, novels & all the lovely fanfiction I'm pretty much set for the time being. And there is talk of new novels involving Ianto to be produced (at least some before the new series starts). Though hopefully having RTD off the project might do us fans a favor?
From one thing to another, have you listened to any of the Radio dramas? ♥
Re: Torchwood future?
Date: 2010-03-15 05:11 pm (UTC)As far as Jack not saying "I love you" goes... on one hand, it was incredibly depressing that he didn't say it, and made me even sadder if that's at all possible, but on the other hand I think I prefer it this way. I'm afraid if he had said it, what was a genuinely touching scene would have been pushed over into cheesy territory. It's one of those weird situations where, as someone who's really involved with these characters, I wanted to know definitively that Ianto's love was reciprocated (I think it was, but I know not everyone agrees) and Jack dropping an ILU would have sated my not-so-inner fangirl, but I think having him remain tight-lipped was more in character. The critic in me is glad they did it the way they did. I try to let the critic in me restrain the fangirl, but it's a struggle. :)
I agree about Reset. I remember thinking, when watching the episode, that it was weird that Jack would go through all the trouble of resurrecting Owen, and that it all clicked when watching the Declassified and realizing it was originally going to be Ianto. I'm glad it was Owen, though, because 1) I've never really liked Owen and 2) by losing his ability to eat, shag, and sleep, Owen's world was turned more upside-down than Ianto's would have been, and Owen is much more vocal when things are not going his way. Not gonna lie, though, I've been completely tempted to try my hand at rewriting "Dead Man Walking" and "A Day in the Death" featuring Ianto instead of Owen...
I'm actually kind of undecided on the Alsonso front. I'm cool with it as a flirtation, or a one-time hook-up, but I think any deeper feelings I'd have on the issue all depends on how the writers would handle it. Which is actually the same kind of feeling I have towards Torchwood!USA. The FOX thing has me genuinely concerned (Run away, Torchwood. Run away screaming.) since I"m still recovering from how badly they handled Dollhouse. I'm pretty sure RTD is still on Torchwood, it's just Dr. Who that he's left, since he's already said that he's got about fifteen episodes for Torchwood series 4 written. That's one thing that has me excited about a US Torchwood: the possibility of a 22 episode season. That's, like, double the TW. :D
And I have listened to the radio dramas. And loved them to tiny little bits. I heard there might be a new one out in May, which would be pre-CoE, and I REALLY hope it pans out....